Playing at the small-schools level is paying big dividends for a Robert D. Edgren Eagles program that's emerging as a Far East Class A power.
The Eagles won their third straight Class A football title, and added a Class A cross-country title in the first year that Far East meet team titles have been segregated by enrollment. And the Class A cheerleading team title remains the Eagles' province as well.
Read about it in this week's Pacific high school Home Team page.
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Are any of the Japan Schools dropping down in Football
Dave,
Rumor we heard was that one of the other schools in Japan with similar enrollment may drop down to Class A for football next year. Is this true? I think it would be good, as it would eliminate the automatic bid, and that 7PM game we have to play every other year in northern Japan, LOL!!
As for my pick for the best small school program (based on school enrollment), for this year (so far) it would go to Daegu (around 190 kids). Their football team did great things this year with a very small pool of players to choose from. Dont let their record fool you. They beat Seoul (only defeat), with another game being determined late in the 4th.
Re: Are any of the Japan Schools dropping down in Football
Squint: The only one within shouting distance is Yokota, and as long as a certain Texan named Pujol is in charge of football there, Yokota's enrollment could fall to 150 and they'd still play Class AA. "We'll just work harder," one of Yokota's coaches told me. Even if they did move to A, they would still play 7 p.m. championship kickoffs.
Squint, just supposing here, would it really matter what time the Class A championship kicked off at Osan or Daegu?
Dave, just joking about the kickoff time... BRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!
Dave,
I thought there was mention that Zama may go below 350 and be able to drop down.
Comment on kickoff time was just in reference to the cold at Edgren... No matter 8AM or 7PM, we just want to play ball... You gotta admit, the fog in 06 was pretty eerie..
As for here in Korea, a late kickoff would bring near the same results as in Edgren (cold weather). We normally go with the earlier kickoff to enable more folks to see the game. As I sit here typing right now, the temp is at around 65 degrees, although it was 34 this morning.
10 months...
I Don't Really Believe It's the Coach's Decision
I for one comend Coach Pujol and his assistants for running a stellar program but it really shouldn't be the coach's decision whether or not they should play Class A or AA...this isn't "Hickory High School" in Hoosiers...we all know full well that a team with an enrollment of 300 or below will face more than its share of challenges against a school with enrollments over 900. It is a bit too much to ask of these kids, in my opinion, to pound their brains in day and day out when they know they could compete and win at a more appropriate level. They didn't set up the rules that govern the numbers, but nor should they suffer for it. I believe that Class A in particular would benefit from having more than three teams. I know all the kids feel great but even the coaches would like to see more on the line to get to the championship game...with Yokota at Class A that would, at the very least, make the Yokota vs Edgren series as significant as Osan vs Daegu...what say ye nation?
Yokota Enrollment 306 as of Nov. 7, 2008
Orny,
So, what is the cutoff again? 315 for football and 300 for all other sports, correct? Hmm, could be interesting next year if that number holds, eh?
Osan Grade 9-12 Enrollment 276 as of Nov. 7, 2008
With the opening the new middle school next year and talks of adding command sponsorships could this be Osan's last year in Class A? We shall see, eh? not sure exactly when that decision is made...Orny, do you know?
Re: Osan possibly moving up
USA_vball_coach:
That may well become a reality, since the number of command-sponsored tours is increasing throughout the peninsula. Seoul and/or the new high school at Pyongtaek (if it ever becomes a reality) will also grow. And iIf/when the move "south of the Han" ever takes place (they've been discussing that since 1985), Daegu could see its own enrollment spike. Then it may be time to create a whole new football chessboard for the Pacific.
Class AA/Class A cutoff
USA_vball_coach:
Cutoff for football only is 360 and above for Class AA eligiblity, 359 and below for Class A eligibility, simply because of the size of football teams.
For all other sports, the cutoffs are 300 and above/299 and below.
Should Yokota Play in Class A
I had forgotten how much that gap was...sixty kids is alot. I am a bit surprised that Yokota was not made to make the move to Class A for football some time ago as their enrollments have been under the 360 mark for some time. It seems as if this defeats the entire purpose of the cutoff numbers in the first place if they are arbitrarily enforced. Again, I don't believe this is the decision of the coaching staff, principal, etc. to make, pure and simple. I would imagine that the powers that be have let it slide because of the power the coach wields and because they are forced to compete in all other sports in Class AA as they are over 300; oversight, doubt it. It seems to me that ego is the only thing standing in the way of such a move. Dave, I see the power of media opportunity here, yes? How about a little heat on the "powers that be?" I want to see the Edgren vs Yokota and Osan vs Daegu series at the very least instead of an automatic bid. Make these kids get in the weight room and sweat a little for something in the off-season...
Re: Should Yokota Play in Class A
Whoo ... and perhaps Yokota is jonesing for that ever-elusive Class AA football championship, and would push just as hard back to keep their place at the large-school level.
As Lee Corso tells Kirk Herbstreit and Chris Fowler repeatedly, "Not so fast, my friend!"
The Panthers have won 10 straight DODDS-Japan and Kanto Plain titles, and won five Rising Sun Bowls before the advent of the Far East playoff system. Tim Pujol, the competitor he is, probably won't rest until he gets that Class AA title -- and would likely resist any and every move to force him to drop to Class A, and get the weight of the athletics director and school administration behind him. DODDS-Pacific DOES, in fact, leave it up to individual schools sitting on the fence between levels to make that decision; it's not made for them by DODDS-Pacific or the Japan district.
Who would want to deny Yokota that chance? They came close in 2007, leading Kadena 13-12 at halftime in the Class AA championship.
As to whether Edgren gets in the weight room and sweats a little for something ... They'd been trying to beat Yokota 16 times over nine years, and finally did it, 20-18 on Oct. 24. The victory that made the Eagles program "come of age." Now that they've done that, they'll surely want to stay there, perhaps outlast their three Class AA opponents and win their first DODDS-Japan title. Not to mention keep hold of that Class A title a fourth year in a row. They won't need Yokota to drop to the Class A level for that.
SportsBlog Nation, sound off! SportsFanatic, Sweet1PantherMom, LegendInJapan, speak up! What do you think?
Dave -- Always the wise one
I totally agree with your post Dave, Coach P is a fierce competitor and he would only drop down if it was mandated. I for one as a fan enjoy the AA competition and not knocking A competition, but I think that it makes our young men stronger and they hold their heads high being ever grateful for having participated in that level of competition. If Yokota has the opportunity to remain as Class AA I think that they should -- why run away from solid competition if you've got the talent to back it up? Some of the time athletes like easy wins, but nothing feels as good as a win where you are the underdog and not expected to win for whatever reason (Edgren has a little knowledge about that - after the 9 year drought). Coach P is a very smart coach, he has won with the cards that he has been dealt every year. We see the PCS plane help and hurt and he manages every football season to make it work for the team -- I'll let the records speak for me here.
Bottom Line Up Front: I don't think that Yokota will drop down to the Class A level and I think the other teams should be thanking their lucky stars!
Class A competitors: Be careful what you ask for -- you just might get it!
What is the point...
I spent a few years as a coach in the Pacific and I enjoyed my time there...I imagine that I will someday return as I really enjoyed the kids and the competition but it just does not make sense to me to continue to support disparities such as having three teams compete in Class A football. Again, Yokota's program is legendary but that shouldn't allow them to dance to the beat of a different drum. Unfortunately, DoDDS has been a bit lax in the administration of Far East activities and has made many decisions which puzzle me. Far too many of the decisions appear to be in the hands of the coaches and tournament directors which leads to many of these MVP decision issues, format issues at tournaments, bench clearing craziness and the like. Although there are some drawbacks to more centralized control of such administration, I believe the benefits outweigh them.
Let's face it, there are simply not enough football teams in Class A to make it really interesting. I know I will get my buddies at Edgren, Daegu, and Osan mad but it is the truth. They would love more competition, I know I would hate to see the competition level drop by losing the international schools from our Volleyball tourneys. Granted, it is great to see Edgren building a great program but three teams ina division is a joke. There is no reason to not have at least four; for that reason alone, Yokota should be made to move down. I know they would be very successful but good for them for building such a good program with what they were given. Marcus George of Ansbach fame is currently in Division II in Europe. They were in DIII until not too long ago (I believe they beat DIII Hohenfels something like 79-0 this season! ouch!) and everyone knows they could compete at DI with the likes of Heidelberg and Ramstein but they are in DII because those are the guidelines. Coach George didn't set them up (although I have a feeling he has some input on the matter) but has to adhere to them like anyone else. Steve Boyd at SAHS was always a great coach, even at Edgren, but we didn't really hear of him until he moved to Seoul where he got a hold of that pool of athletes and could really tear things up in Class AA.
The restrictions on football numbers were created because of injury concerns...if we do not adhere to them, then why have them. Again, I know for a fact that all of Yokota's players are well prepared and conditioned for football but, according to the guidelines and rules set forth governing participation for a school their size, they should be playing in Class A...period.
I have also spent time studying the distinct advantages that schools with smaller enrollments gain by playing against much larger schools in their respective districts such as KAIAC and the Kanto Plain. No one can argue that Edgren in football (with great coaching) as benefitted from playing against three solid Class AA opponents and a resurging ASIJ team under a new coach. Osan and Daegu similiarly benefit in many sports competing by competing against their larger KAIAC bretheren in SAHS and SFS...which explains why so often the Class A team wins Far East but often places 2nd or 3rd behind SAHS or SFS...it is an advantage to be pushed to your limits by stronger competition - every coach worth his salt knows that. Why else would SAHS be allowed to play 55 games (which is WAY too many for a scholastic program but that could be blog topic on its own) in a season entering every tournament from Hong Kong to Yokota and everything Turkey shoot-out in between...why else did SAHS girls have play their JV for the remainder of season versus their KAIAC opponents. I'm sure they filled their schedule with solid military teams. One has only to study the schedules of Kadena and Kubasaki as they struggle to try to find someone, anyone to push their teams to the limits besides each other.
My point is really is that so many of us want to win and teach our kids about the importance of hard work and being the best you can be. Why not allow the kids to experience a little success and have a real shot at taking that "We're #1 picture" that many will never forget. It is a fine line to dance between watering down the competition and having it still mean something...we shall see. I wish all the teams good luck in their upcoming seasons.
Re: What is the point...
Yokota football has always impressed me as being not about the size of the dog in the fight, but about the size of the fight in the dog.
Don't be the least surprised, my friend, if we see, say, Yokota remain at Class AA for football but drop to Class A for all other sports.
I understand...
I agree it does come with a bit of charm...does the picket fence work in football?
point???
Its not such a fine line to dance between watering down the competition and still meaning something. Watering down the competition, is watering down the competition, both Yokota and its current competition lose out with them dropping down. It only means something if the prize is more important than the competition, which you may not advocate but you do propose.
Truly, as a coach, A.D., administrator or association, if decisions are made because of that #1 picture then they are for the wrong reasons. Funny how so many decisions nowadays are made to make everyone winners.... at the expense of rigour, character, and yes competition.
Should Yokota drop down so its students can have a #1 moment then against weaker competition? Your argument holds water if Yokota was not able to compete or didn't have a legitimate shot at a title. It can be argued that it is because Yokota works to be competitive where they are now that they dominate the Japan mainland so consistently. I agree that "so many of us want to win and teach our kids about the importance of hard work and being the best you can be..." yes the best coaches are competitors but the best of the best seek out the best competition, instill it in their athletes, breed excellence by setting high standards, and by this high goals are met. When its all about the win or championship... we fail as coaches. You are proposing that arguably one of the most consistently competitive programs in the Far East should lower its standards, shoot for the moon instead of the stars. If I were a parent at Yokota I would say don't tell my kid to lower his goals because three other schools for the moment want better competition this season. Do we teach our kids to strive for excellence, to overcome adversity or settle for a #1 picture?
When the powers that be in the Pacific decide to mandate that Yokota drop down to small schools then its all a moot point, but it won't happen while Yokota continues to field competitive teams with a legitimate shot at winning a title. At some point the pcs beast may force Yokota to drop to the small school division, and I know coach Pujol will be the first to admit it when that time comes. Until that time, to propose Yokota should be forced to drop to a joke of a division (your words) when they have indeed been more than competitive where they are, is promoting little mediocrity.
For those who say the only reason Yokota isn't dropping down is because Pujol wants a title.... you really don't get it. Its always about the next game, Pujol puts a quality product on the field of play in every sport he coaches because he coaches excellence, discipline, character, hard work, and he does his homework.... I will say I am fortunate to have picked his brain on more than one occasion, he is a master teacher and coach. One thing about Yokota football and its coaching staff, those kids come out of that program loving football, understanding the game and learning how to overcome adversity. Yes success breads success but expectations have a way of coming back and biting you in the butt. Expect excellence, success will follow, championships will come... Expect championships, you may win but disapointment more times than not will follow.
I say keep up the good work Coach Pujol. Thanks for setting and keeping your standards high!
Desperado
Alignments
I often write back and forth with Fred Bales in Okinawa and several old European coaching buddies that now reside in the Pacific. After reading about the Pacific, I realize how lucky we are in Europe. With all of our closures and drawdown, we still have 24 schools that play football and are working hard to add local national play.
The Pacific divisional alignment ranges caught my attention. Having only three schools in a division must be tough.
We have been very lucky at Ansbach to have great student-athletes and fortunate to have great school and community support for our program. We were moved up to Division II in 2007, as we grew to an enrollment of over 200. A population of 200 sudents has usually been a cut-off for Division II, with the upper range at around 400-450.
The commitment to maintain a fairly close enrollment range within divisions has led DoDDS-Europe to divide the schools into 4 divisions. In the smallest divisions (IV and III), the range has been 70 or less. In the upper two classes (Division I and II) the range is greater. This year, the range in Division II was about 150-200 students and the range in Division I was higher, about 400 students. At the upper level, smaller schools in Division I can somewhat understand Yokota's plight.
Yakota would be a mid-range Division II school in Europe and they would not have to compete for championships against schools with 500-800 students. On the other hand, they would have a larger group of schools to compete against. Our hats are off to Yakota. What a great program!
The only reason you hate
The only reason you hate playing that 7pm game in northern Japan every other year is because you get you get beat down everytime you come.
Re: Other reasons
Nothing like the home-field advantage to give every one of these playoff games a certain charm.
Edgren's Saturday night kickoffs bring with them the eerie fog of 2006 and the piercing chill of 2008, big, vocal crowds, cheerleaders doing pushups after every touchdown, bands and Taiko drummers ... and Ornauer's fingers feeling as if they'd turned into icicles.
Osan's 2005 2 p.m. kickoff brought folks of all ilk out of the woodwork. Not a seat to be found anywhere in the concrete stands. People lined up around the fence three and four deep. The tailgaters across the field out in record numbers. Security forces blocking off one of the nearby roadways to protect spectators. And 70-degree weather that had Ornauer out in shorts and shirtsleeves.
Naturally, my camera prefers daytime kickoff for better photo exposure. And it helps me meet deadlines more easily.
But that's why the home team gets to choose the start time, to best suit the needs and wants of its community. :)
Thank you for sharing KMisawa
It is always nice to hear from someone who adds something to the blog...
Go Warriors!! (enrollment here is 172 as of Oct 31)
Daegu volleyball and tennis did well this year also...
Daegu was a suprisinng 3rd , behind Osan and Morrison at the Class Volleyball tournament
Also, the Tennis team finished tied for 4th with Kubasaki behind Kadena, SAHS and Kinnick.
If there was a seperate small schools category in Tennis, Daegu would have won it.
Congratulations to Osan as well for another strong fall sports season.
.....102 days......
Count your blessings
Yokota is about 10 kids more than Edgren. EHS is right below the 300 mark and YHS is just above it. If the trends continue Yokota will be able to go small school in the very near future. Anyone who doesn't think they'll dominate needs to see a doctor.
Enjoy your success Eagles, and remember that second place won't be so bad!
YHS Football
Okay, first yes Edgren beat the Panthers and congrats to them. But, if Yokota were small school they still would have represented in the playoffs because of the point differential. Edgren has 3 titles becuase Yokota goes large school. One out of 16 isn't something to get too excited over..yet. Let's see them continue to win against the Mainland Masters and then give them a tip of the hat. If the games continue to be won by the home team but the differential is always a lot larger at Yokota, what does that say?
And to Yokota going large or small school...here's the bottom line:
Yokota can compete with the big boys, coming close to winning almost all the games that were lost. So they are competitive at that level. However, the chances of winning against the big boys is small because they have so much more to pool football players from. For every one experienced varsity level player that YHS gets, Kadena will get 3 and Kubasaki and Seoul get 2. Not whining, just a fact.
However, if Yokota goes small school they will be seen as bullies on the block who only went small school because they can't beat the big 3 and only care about winning.
Who said "Damned if you do, damned if you don't?"
The Pujol factor is why they are still able to compete even though there was NOBODY on the team this year over 185 lbs.
Incorrect facts...
not true ghostwriter...we didn't have that many come out...maybe 30 kids to play varsity. The Pujol factor is true, but they haven't won a Far East AA title yet...and Coach P is not finished...we all still have our hands full with that guy...
Athlete to student ratio...
some schools have it, some don't...and combined with good coaching (Yokota) it's a great thing...we have great athletes walking our hallways at Kadena who simply don't want to play...don't "want to"..."work on my car"..."have a job"...big base, bigger issues...simple...It's not always as it seems...
Common Problem
Coach,
I think what you are describing happens at all schools. There are kids at Yokota who don't play sports for the same reasons, and our colleagues at Zama and Kinnick say the same. My point is that for every one a school of 300 gets to come out, numerically speaking a school with 900 would get 3. Our program finished with 38 healthy players (varisty and JV combined). Do I think that means Kadena would get 90 kids out? No. However YHS has several first year players on our varsity every year. We all know that it's extremely rare to have a first year be able to contribute a significant amount at that level. How many first year players did Kadena travel to Seoul with? And how many were two-way-starters? Yokota had 9 play both sides of the ball.
That's where the numbers game favors a bigger school like Kadena.
Also, for every one that we get off the plane with stateside football experience, Kadena would get 3 and Seoul would get 2. It may not happen that way every single year, but the law of averages would work out this way. Yokota has to rely more heavily on our JV program to groom kids who have never played before (and may PCS before their senior year).
Agree with GW
Imagine what Daegu goes through each year trying to keep 20 guys suited up with an enrollment under 200.. And they beat Seoul, the large school champion... Seoul's last three losses: Osan in 06, Kadena in 07, and Taegu in 08. Yes, we probably play each other tougher, just like the teams in Japan do. This year was a mess... Seoul beat us twice, Daegu beat Seoul (almost twice), and we beat Daegu twice... Injuries control our destiny at the lower end of the small school level, as we do not have a JV body pool to pull from.
To be honest, we go out each year working for the Korea title first. We were criticized for playing the decisive third game against Seoul for the league championship in 2006, but to tell you the truth, our guys would not have had it any other way. We lost the game (34-20), as well as four starters that day (3 who started both ways), two weeks before the FE Championship. They left it on the field that day, but had no regrets, as they had chosen to play in a game that they thought was more important.
Bottom line is that what you have at the end of the season is what you bring to the playoffs and Far East. To be able to suit up a true varsity team with 25 juniors and seniors would be great, but is not a reality at the smaller schools. We have to start freshman in order to field a team, hoping they learn quickly and step up.
Coming out and declaring that you will compete at AA takes grit, especially when you don't know how the chips will fall in regards to injuries, ineligibility, etc.
Hats off to TP and the rest of the guys at Yokota.